You are now being logged in using your Facebook credentials
 

Arkansas Carry

  • Full Screen
  • Wide Screen
  • Narrow Screen
  • Increase font size
  • Default font size
  • Decrease font size
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1

TOPIC: Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 3 months 5 days ago #1

As the result of the recent passing of the Church Carry law my church has recently started discussions on whether to allow firearms on the property or not. Some things that came from the meeting I am not so sure about. Here is a brief list.

1. Some members were concerned that we need to have a policy in place listing who is allowed to conceal carry at church. We would then make it clear that just because you have a a CCL you are not allowed to carry on church grounds unless you are on that list. Their concern here is that an incident may occur, the police are called, and when they show up a non-authorized church member has his weapon out saying "he went that way" and he is shot by the police.

My response: I did not vocalize this yet, because I'd like to do some research. I am not aware of a CCL ever being shot by police once they showed up to the scene. Can anybody provide a reference to back this up one way or the other? Also, how is the officers who arrive on scene supposed to know the authorized and unauthorized CCL is?

2. Others were in favor of the possibility of putting signs up, such as the 8"x10" being proposed in the current Church Carry amendment. They said they had done research and since 1950 there has only been 1 shooting of 3 or more people in an area that was not gun free. That 1 instance would be the shooting of Senator Giffords.

My response: I'm trying to find instances of this not being accurate. The recent mall shooting in Oregon comes to mind. If I remember correctly, 2 were shot dead and another wounded before the shooter was confronted by a CCL holder. The suspect then shot himself.

3. Others were concerned that under the current Church Carry law if we allow concealed carry in the church the church would be liable for anything that would happen.

My response: It is my understanding that this is not true. The church has charitable immunity. Senator Stephanie Flowers from Pine Bluff tried to amend the current law before it received a vote, but was unsuccessful in doing so.

4. Someone had the idea of requesting all the CCL holders in the church let the church know they are CCL holders so that the church could in turn notify them that they are not allowed to carry a concealed firearm on church property.

My response: It is nobody's business other than law enforcement as to who has a CCL and who does not. If current legislation is passed it won't even be public knowledge anymore if you request it under the Freedom of Information Act.

These were just 4 of the concerns. Some of the others were only allowing the two retired police officers to carry, creating a Security Committee to oversee appointing a group of individuals to carry as well as receive training (I was in favor of this one), to an older gentlemen quoting Mathew 26:52 where Jesus said, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

If you have any insight with actual facts that would be helpful for me to present in rebuttal to these statements it would be much appreciated.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 3 months 5 days ago #2

  • whoknewit
  • whoknewit's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Supporting Member
  • Posts: 71
  • Thank you received: 22
This is a huge topic. I'm glad your church is discussing it. Here are my two cents which barely touches the topic:

1. The incident will be over by the time the police arrive. Whoever calls 911 needs to describe the suspect, as well as the good guys. Most likely his/her gun will be holstered by the time the police get there. I'm not aware of any CHCL holder being shot by police, but I only did a quick web search.
2. No comment.
3. Consult an attorney.
4. The church shouldn't try to get the names of all CHCL holders. If they don't want everyone to carry they need make a statement to the congregation and/or post a "No Guns" sign to that effect (bad idea), just like other establishments do. That wouldn't prevent them from designating certain people who can carry. I don't like signs of any kind.

Security Committee isn't a bad idea. Better to be prepared.

Regarding the older gentleman. I don't believe that verse refers to self defense. Rather, it refers to warlords and criminals who "live by the sword." We who would defend ourselves or others do not "live by the sword."

Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
caring is carrying.
Last Edit: 3 months 5 days ago by whoknewit.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 3 months 5 days ago #3

  • KBCraig
  • KBCraig's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Forum Elite
  • Posts: 691
  • Thank you received: 73
The insurance issue is nonsense. I'm not sure who floated it, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the insurance industry is trying to charge more. Then again, they'd charge more if you ban carry and someone gets shot by a criminal.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 3 months 5 days ago #4

  • Maltz
  • Maltz's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Active User
  • Posts: 107
  • Thank you received: 23
1) There have been very few mass shootings in CHL-friendly areas. Almost all of them are in "gun-free" zones - schools, movie theaters (with signs), military bases (I was stunned to discover no one could carry at Ft Hood.) etc etc.

2) ... and signs stop bad guys how? The only people signs stop are people who are law-abiding and proficient enough to have taken a class and gotten a license. It makes no difference to anyone else because they're just as illegal with or without a sign. And if they DO intend harm, then the sign is the least of the laws they're breaking. Further, the signs are redundant. The default state, even under the new law, is no-guns. The church has to explicitly allow it.

3) It's always seemed to me that there would be more liability if an establishment denied people the means to defend themselves and did not provide some kind of security of their own. But I've never heard of any place being sued that way. Anyway, I don't see how they would suffer any liability from not banning firearms. Not banning *licensed* CHL holders shouldn't be any sort legal negligence. But I am not a lawyer!

I also have a hard time believing insurance would be higher considering the ratio of shootings in no-gun zones vs CHL friendly areas. It seems like it would be the other way around, if anything. Insurance companies are NOT political entities - they are very good at statistics and their rates very much reflect reality.

4) Ask them what purpose knowing who is carrying serves. They already cannot carry unless the church gives them permission. The proper course of action is to either allow all CHL holders to carry, allow no CHL holders to carry, or to allow CHL holders to request permission (preferably privately) to carry if they really feel the church leaders need to know who is carrying. Such a list serves no purpose but to ostracize them, especially if they're only using the list to tell them no a second time.


I wish there was a middle ground... put up a no-gun sign, but only for people who are not licensed or can otherwise legally carry. That way the no-gun people get their warm fuzzy feeling, and we can go about our business. :)
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Zen Chameleon

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 2 months 4 weeks ago #5

  • Griffworks
  • Griffworks's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Active User
  • Retired USAF
  • Posts: 91
  • Thank you received: 12
2. Following references of Non-Gun Free Zone Shootings that I could find in a quick search via Google:
Sikh Temple Shooting in Wisconsin, 5 August 2012

Best one yet: http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/12/14/1337221/a-timeline-of-mass-shootings-in-the-us-since-columbine/?mobile=nc

From the above linked page (emphasis mine):
September 27, 2012. Five were shot to death by 36-year-old Andrew Engeldinger at Accent Signage Systems in Minneapolis, MN. Three others were wounded. Engeldinger went on a rampage after losing his job, ultimately killing himself. - Not GFZ

August 5, 2012. Six Sikh temple members were killed when 40-year-old US Army veteran Wade Michael Page opened fire in a gurdwara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. Four others were injured, and Page killed himself. Not GFZ per WI Law

July 20, 2012. During the midnight premiere of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, CO, 24-year-old James Holmes killed 12 people and wounded 58. Holmes was arrested outside the theater.

May 29, 2012. Ian Stawicki opened fire on Cafe Racer Espresso in Seattle, WA, killing 5 and himself after a citywide manhunt. Not GFZ per WA Law

April 6, 2012. Jake England, 19, and Alvin Watts, 32, shot 5 black men in Tulsa, Oklahoma, in racially motivated shooting spree. Three died. Not GFZ

April 2, 2012. A former student, 43-year-old One L. Goh killed 7 people at Oikos University, a Korean Christian college in Oakland, CA. The shooting was the sixth-deadliest school massacre in the US and the deadliest attack on a school since the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre.

February 27, 2012. Three students were killed by Thomas “TJ” Lane, another student, in a rampage at Chardon High School in Chardon, OH. Three others were injured.

October 14, 2011. Eight people died in a shooting at Salon Meritage hair salon in Seal Beach, CA. The gunman, 41-year-old Scott Evans Dekraai, killed six women and two men dead, while just one woman survived. It was Orange County’s deadliest mass killing. Not GFZ

September 6, 2011. Eduardo Sencion, 32, entered an IHOP restaurant in Carson City, NV and shot 12 people. Five died, including three National Guard members. Not GFZ

January 8, 2011. Former Rep. Gabby Giffords (D-AZ) was shot in the head when 22-year-old Jared Loughner opened fire on an event she was holding at a Safeway market in Tucson, AZ. Six people died, including Arizona District Court Chief Judge John Roll, one of Giffords’ staffers, and a 9-year-old girl. 19 total were shot. Loughner has been sentenced to seven life terms plus 140 years, without parole. Not GFZ

August 3, 2010. Omar S. Thornton, 34, gunned down Hartford Beer Distributor in Manchester, CT after getting caught stealing beer. Nine were killed, including Thornton, and two were injured. Not GFZ

November 5, 2009. Forty-three people were shot by Army psychiatrist Nidal Malik Hasan at the Fort Hood army base in Texas. Hasan reportedly yelled “Allahu Akbar!” before opening fire, killing 13 and wounding 29 others.

April 3, 2009. Jiverly Wong, 41, opened fire at an immigration center in Binghamton, New York before committing suicide. He killed 13 people and wounded 4.

March 29, 2009. Eight people died in a shooting at the Pinelake Health and Rehab nursing home in Carthage, NC. The gunman, 45-year-old Robert Stewart, was targeting his estranged wife who worked at the home and survived. Stewart was sentenced to life in prison.

February 14, 2008. Steven Kazmierczak, 27, opened fire in a lecture hall at Northern Illinois University, killing 6 and wounding 21. The gunman shot and killed himself before police arrived. It was the fifth-deadliest university shooting in US history.

February 7, 2008. Six people died and two were injured in a shooting spree at the City Hall in Kirkwood, Missouri. The gunman, Charles Lee Thornton, opened fire during a public meeting after being denied construction contracts he believed he deserved. Thornton was killed by police.

December 5, 2007. A 19-year-old boy, Robert Hawkins, shot up a department store in the Westroads Mall in Omaha, NE. Hawkins killed 9 people and wounded 4 before killing himself. The semi-automatic rifle he used was stolen from his stepfather’s house.

April 16, 2007. Virginia Tech became the site of the deadliest school shooting in US history when a student, Seung-Hui Choi, gunned down 56 people. Thirty-two people died in the massacre.

February 12, 2007. In Salt Lake City’s Trolley Square Mall, 5 people were shot to death and 4 others were wounded by 18-year-old gunman Sulejman Talović. One of the victims was a 16-year-old boy. Not GFZ

October 2, 2006. An Amish schoolhouse in Lancaster, PA was gunned down by 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts, Roberts separated the boys from the girls, binding and shooting the girls. 5 young girls died, while 6 were injured. Roberts committed suicide afterward.

March 25, 2006. Seven died and 2 were injured by 28-year-old Kyle Aaron Huff in a shooting spree through Capitol Hill in Seattle, WA. The massacre was the worst killing in Seattle since 1983. Not GFZ

March 21, 2005. Teenager Jeffrey Weise killed his grandfather and his grandfather’s girlfriend before opening fire on Red Lake Senior High School, killing 9 people on campus and injuring 5. Weise killed himself.

March 12, 2005. A Living Church of God meeting was gunned down by 44-year-old church member Terry Michael Ratzmann at a Sheraton hotel in Brookfield, WI. Ratzmann was thought to have had religious motivations, and killed himself after executing the pastor, the pastor’s 16-year-old son, and 7 others. Four were wounded. Not GFZ

July 8, 2003. Doug Williams, a Lockheed Martin employee, shot up his plant in Meridian, MS in a racially-motivated rampage. He shot 14 people, most of them African American, and killed 7 before killing himself. Not GFZ

December 26, 2000. Edgewater Technology employee Michael “Mucko” McDermott shot and killed seven of his coworkers at the office in Wakefield, MA. McDermott claimed he had “traveled back in time and killed Hitler and the last 6 Nazis.” He was sentenced to 7 consecutive life sentences. Not GFZ

September 15, 1999. Larry Gene Ashbrook opened fire on a Christian rock concert and teen prayer rally at Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, TX. He killed 7 people and wounded 7 others, almost all teenagers. Ashbrook committed suicide.

July 29, 1999. Mark Orrin Barton, 44, murdered his wife and two children with a hammer before shooting up two Atlanta day trading firms. Barton, a day trader, was believed to be motivated by huge monetary losses. He killed 12 including his family and injured 13 before killing himself. Not GFZ

April 20, 1999. In the deadliest high school shooting in US history, teenagers Eric Harris and Dylan Kiebold shot up Columbine High School in Littleton, CO. They killed 13 people and wounded 21 others. They killed themselves after the massacre.

I've not checked all of the above instances, but those listed as "Not GFZ" are what I looked for specifically and can't find anything in related articles or for those states which list those placeas as Gun Free Zones. And this is just in the last 14 years. If I go back to 1950, I'm sure that I can find others.

What you should be trying to sell them on is the thinking that Gun Free Zones provide a false sense of security.

My hope for your church is that they at least go with idea of the Retired LEO forming a Security Team. If you look up the requirements for a Security Officer and the creation of a security team/detail. One of the main requirements, IIRC, is to be a LE for at least two years. I'm at work and starting to get busy for turnover or I'd research that for you, as well, but jsut don't have time at present.
Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #12-751
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: whoknewit

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 2 months 3 weeks ago #6

Thanks for the list Griffworks. That is a starting point. I spoke with a gentlemen in our local community who is a retired Army officer, current LEO, teaches tactical training classes, and has written articles on self defense for a few publications. He is willing to come speak to our church to debunk some of the myths out there and explain the law. I felt like the explanations coming from somebody who understands the law and makes a living teaching it would be a good starting point. I brought this up to our preacher last Sunday. He said we were tabling the discussion until all of the current proposed bills had been dealt with. He only brought it up earlier to get people to start thinking about things. I got the impression he wasn't too keen on having somebody come in and speak. It probably wouldn't flow with the agenda if you know what I mean.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 2 months 3 weeks ago #7

  • KBCraig
  • KBCraig's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Forum Elite
  • Posts: 691
  • Thank you received: 73
Griffworks wrote:
I've not checked all of the above instances, but those listed as "Not GFZ" are what I looked for specifically and can't find anything in related articles or for those states which list those placeas as Gun Free Zones.

"GFZ" does not include just those places off limits by statute, and not just those who post signs banning carry. It includes all places where the individuals involved were not allowed to carry.

The Trolley Square Mall was widely reported at the time to be posted "no guns" (as are almost all malls). I guarantee you that the Lockheed Martin plant banned carry by employees.

It's a good list, but Think Progress can be assumed to apply a leftist slant to everything.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: glenndon.09

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 2 months 3 weeks ago #8

  • Griffworks
  • Griffworks's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Active User
  • Retired USAF
  • Posts: 91
  • Thank you received: 12
No, what was marked as GFZ is what *I* specifically looked at for each states statutes. Several of those states don't have anything which allows a business to declare itself legally GFZ, nor are places like Houses of Worship off-limits. That's all I, personally, was looking for and Think Progress didn't make those distinctions. Just like with Park Plaza and McCain Mall's here in the Greater Little Rock area having their "codes of conduct" which state "no weapons", they're not legal signage, thus carry no weight of law.

That's the only thing I was getting at, from what I could research online via a basic Google search and Handgunlaw.us
Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #12-751
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 2 months 2 weeks ago #9

  • razorback2003
  • razorback2003's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Active User
  • Posts: 109
  • Thank you received: 6
I am in Tennessee and there is no specific law prohibiting carry in a church here, unless the church is also a school. I sometimes carry to church and I am sure there are others who do to. My church does not have any specific policy that I know of. I have never asked anyone for some special permission. I just carry my gun to church like I would at any other business or even people's houses that I visit. We don't need to 'notify' homeowners like people do in Arkansas either.

I don't think you will have any problems with people carrying in church because we don't have problems here.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion 2 months 1 week ago #10

  • Nightsonge
  • Nightsonge's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • New User
  • Posts: 5
  • Thank you received: 3
I'm in Oklahoma, we've had concealed carry about as long as Arkansas has, just a few months difference. Oklahoma law has always permitted carry in a church unless the church posts signage on the entrances, and we've always allowed carry in city,county, and state parks and recreational areas REGARDLESS of signage. To date, I'm unaware of ANY problems stemming from carry being permitted in these places.

So, I'd be asking your pastors and legislators why they feel Arkansas carriers are less competent and trustworthy than Okie Carriers. Just to see how they answer, and if they manage to put both feet in their mouths while doing so. :-)

"ok, I have a seriously warped sense of humor, I admit it."
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: _JOE_, icebox13
  • Page:
  • 1
Time to create page: 0.312 seconds

Automated Tip Line

Add Us to Your Cell Phone!

501-291-4839

This is a voice mail box that forwards your messages to our e-mail.  Give us a call if you have a question about our organization, carrying firearms, or see a business that prohibits lawful carry!

 
Join our effort to get Pro-2A candidates elected. 
Visit us at:  www.ac-pac.org
www.facebook.com/arkansascarrypac
Arkansas Carry Political Action Committee

Site Visitor Activity

We have 469 guests and 6 members online
You are here: Forum The Soap Box Carrying in Arkansas Concealed Carry Discussion Questions from a recent Concealed Carry Discussion